Lou Dobbs Appears on MSNBC's The Last Word

Last Updated on Friday, 08 October 2010 04:41 Friday, 08 October 2010 04:34

MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell spoke with radio host Lou Dobbs and “The Nation” reporter Isabel McDonald, as Dobbs responded to McDonald’s story today that Dobbs had employed undocumented workers at his home.

The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell telecasts weeknights, 10-11 p.m. ET on MSNBC. Izzy Povich is senior executive producer. Greg Kordick is executive producer.

O’DONNELL: Joining me now is Isabel McDonald from The Nation, whose year-long investigation into Lou Dobbs' employment practices including interviews she conducted with five immigrants who worked on his properties without papers is in the magazine now.

And to respond, joining us from his New Jersey home, Lou Dobbs.

Now, Lou you are only the second person to do two appearances on this show. We 're going to give you complete chance to -- to deal with this. And as you know, in court rooms, prosecution goes first.

So I'm going to have Isabel make her case first, briefly, and then have you respond to that. Is that all right, Lou?

DOBBS: I -- I will brace myself.

O'DONNELL: All right. And I know you've been on the radio together already. You invited her to the (inaudible) on your radio show today.

I've heard some of that exchange already. So this is round two. This is followup from your radio show.

Isabel, what is the basic case that you -- you came up with in this year-long investigation?

MCDONALD: Well in my investigation which included interviews with five workers who told me that they had worked while undocumented caring for Lou Dobbs' show jumping horses and for his property, I found that Lou Dobbs, who had made himself an emblem of this get-tough approach to immigration including advocating -- advocating as you mentioned, Lawrence, for felony charges to be used against employers who hire undocumented workers.

I found that Lou Dobbs, himself, had been exploiting undocumented labor. And the question that I'm really still hoping for an answer for, and I'm hoping that -- that Mr. Dobbs can provide us with an answer to it, where does the buck stop?

I mean Lou made himself an emblem of this approach to immigration and he has not actually responded to the substantive evidence I present that there were at least five undocumented workers who cared for his show jumping horses and who cared for the grounds of his estate in Florida.

O'DONNELL: Lou, undocumented workers caring for your horses and the grounds of your home.

DOBBS: What Isabel forgot to put in her story was the fact that Missy Clark, the head of North Run Stables which is my -- my 22-year-old daughter's chief trainer, those -- those folks who take care of the horses, grooms, and caretakers are all legal and have been for several years and -- in every case.

Secondly, I'm an emblem of what? I have been, and she neglected, I think she will acknowledge, to point out I've been working very hard for the past year trying to come up with a compromise on illegal immigration, border security against all factions trying to bring those relevant parties to the table.

And what she also neglected to put straight forwardly out there is, and she agreed on my broadcast, she is not accusing me nor have I ever hired an illegal immigrant nor has any company that I own ever hired an illegal immigrant.

So I think we need to understand what her point is because it must be larger than what is being bandied around the mainstream media which has leaped on this to suggest that I'm some sort of hypocrite. You know, it -- it's astounding. I have never hired an illegal immigrant nor has any company that I own.

And to suggest otherwise is just you know, it's absurd.

O'DONNELL: Isabel, what is your proof that Lou has hired these illegal workers?

MCDONALD: The testimony that I got from the workers who've labored on his estate and labored with his show jumping horses. I think we need to -- we need to be clear that Lou is splitting hairs here, Lawrence.

He has --

O'DONNELL: Well wait. This is -- this is pretty simple. Lou, as she says, there are people she has spoken to who have worked at your home who are illegal. That means you've hired these illegal workers working at your home, doesn't it? If what they are telling her is true.

DOBBS: I think you're -- I -- I would say that that is categorically wrong. It fails logically and -- and just straight forward causality.

The only person who would have been an illegal in any context would have been a landscaper who was working for the contractor working on my house in Florida. That may have happened. But that isn't my employee nor is it the reason I would have contracted with hat landscaper.

And to suggest I hired the person who is illegal if, indeed she can document there was someone illegal, is an absurdity. I absolutely did not.

O'DONNELL: (inaudible) let's get (inaudible) because --

DOBBS: So maybe there's some -- maybe there's some fine point there that you would like to straighten out for me. I'm telling you point blank. I've never done so.

O'DONNELL: Well I'm going to -- I'm going to quote something you said on your radio show today while talking to Isabel on your radio show. You said, I'm quoting you that you have never quote, "directly or indirectly hired an undocumented worker."

Now, if you're not saying --

DOBBS: Right. Right.

O'DONNELL: -- that it is possible that someone hired by your landscaping contractor had an undocumented worker on your property, that, Lou, is indirectly --

DOBBS: No.

O'DONNELL: -- hiring that worker.

DOBBS: OK. OK. If you want to be you know, if you really want to go there semantically --

O'DONNELL: I'm just using your words (inaudible).

DOBBS: -- Lawrence, the point -- the point -- the point -- please.
Let's try to get to the reality here. What I mean by indirectly is intentionally hiring a contractor who -- for the specific purpose of hiring an illegal immigrant.

O'DONNELL: So intent -- it -- it's a --

DOBBS: I have never done that. Either directly or indirectly.

O'DONNELL: OK.

DOBBS: Exactly.

O'DONNELL: Isabel, what's your response to that?

MCDONALD: Well Lou, you're holding yourself to a completely different standard than the standards that you've held all other American employers to.

I mean for instance, on your show on June seventh --

DOBBS: Like whom?

MCDONALD: -- 2007, you called employers ridiculous for insisting that they should not have to be held accountable for their contractors'

employees.

I mean Lou, the -- does the buck stop with you or not? I think the American public deserves to know.

DOBBS: Well I think that the American public deserves a lot of things and amongst the things that the American public deserves is honest and straight forward answer and understanding of the issue.

What I had said and will continue to maintain is that we cannot possibly reform immigration in this country, immigration policies, regulations and law, unless we can control immigration.

And we cannot control immigration, Isabel, if we do not control our borders and our ports. That syllogism, that logic remains in effect.

At no time -- because I mean you're taking on this (inaudible) as if I'm not working hard to create a solution. At no time have you heard me call for the deportation in this entire debate of a single illegal immigrant nor will you ever.

I have also, and you neglected again to point this out, I have maintained that the only rational actor in this entire crisis is the illegal immigrant himself and herself.

And we have to be working toward a solution. But until all factions understand they're not going to get a whole loaf and that a compromise must be required to get us to move ahead here, we're not going to get much done.

I want to change that. I've been working hard to do it and you neglected to even mention that.

O'DONNELL: Lou, I want to get -- I just want to stay inside the details --

DOBBS: Sure.

O'DONNELL: -- of what this case is. Isabel

DOBBS: Sure.

O'DONNELL: -- has spoken to workers --

DOBBS: First of all, it's not a case. Wait a minute Lawrence, it's not a case. This is a hit job by the nation. It is a left-wing activist advocacy publication. I've got no problem with that.

O'DONNELL: Lou, you're on --

DOBBS: But distorting what it is, I do have a problem with.

O'DONNELL: Lou, you're on trial for hypocrisy here in the court of public opinion. That's the case. So -- so but -- but the point is that

-- that Isabel in her reporting has spoken to people who say they have worked on your landscaping. They have worked on your property and they have said that they are undocumented illegal workers.

Now, you have said that --

DOBBS: And so what? And so what?

O'DONNELL: OK well you --

DOBBS: So what? So what?

O'DONNELL: So what isn't (inaudible)

DOBBS: How would I know that --

O'DONNELL: Now your response to that is so what?

DOBBS: Excuse me. How would I know that?

O'DONNELL: OK. Let's talk about that because I want to go to something that you said. And I want to play something you said on this show on your previous appearance on this show Monday.

DOBBS: Surely.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(UNKNOWN): Hotels, construction, landscaping in this country. Those are the highest concentration of illegal laborers in this country.

(UNKNOWN): And we -- and Lou, we all agree with that. Landscaping.

DOBBS: Right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'DONNELL: Highest concentration of illegal workers. You look at the landscapers on your property. The -- the -- the crew shows up, the contractor you know, makes the deal with you and you look out there and you say to him, "Are all these people legal? Can you -- can you document for me that all these people are legal?"

Why wouldn't you do that? You know. You know, landscaping is exactly where they're going to end up in your employ.

DOBBS: Are -- you know what - -I'm, as you suggest I'm on trial in the court of public opinion. You look, you're on trial every night. So am I. The reality is this, there is a law against you or me inquiring about a legal status for a person in this country unless we are participants in a 287 G program and we're in law enforcement unless we're in immigrations and customs enforcement or if we have a law enforcement responsibility at the border.

You're suggesting as some advocates would say a -- a native establic (ph) where you're going to demand to know what a person's status is.
That's a violation of their rights. You can't have it both ways, Lawrence.

This business of hypocrisy is overwhelming because the nation is stamped with it trying to attack me for its own purposes, presumably part of it is fund raising. I don't know. But for the -- for the nation and for you to ignore the fact that I have been working diligently trying to come up with a solution here, a workable solution for the past four years and -- and with great diligence over the past year.

I mean, I don't think that's fair and I don't -- and I think that you're now on trial in the court of -- of decency and common sense. I mean what in the world is the point of it all?

O'DONNELL: Well, we are trying to keep this decent and common sensical. But Lou, as you know, I live in California. For me to work at Warner Bros. --

DOBBS: Well there goes that case, Lawrence.

O'DONNELL: Right. For me to work at Warner Brothers, as I have several times and other studios in California, I have had to show them my passport and fill out a form proving that I was a legal worker and to go --

DOBBS: Good for you.

O'DONNELL: -- to go on into these other areas you're talking about. I can tell you the new California Domestic Service Agencies will show you the documentation of their workers. And in fact, they advertise and they -- they promote their business on the fact that we can guarantee absolutely legal workers.

So this is --

DOBBS: Terrific.

O'DONNELL: -- (inaudible) and this is doe for landscaping and other domestic services like that around the country. So let's not pretend --

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Explain something to me then, Lawrence. If that is so effective, why does California have the highest concentration of illegal immigrants in the country?

O'DONNELL: Because, Lou -- you know, you know why.

DOBBS: Oh, and most of them working.

O'DONNELL: Because people don't like paying --

DOBBS: I'm -- I'm just asking.

O'DONNELL: People don't like paying that higher wage for the legal worker. Isabel --

DOBBS: No but you were suggesting there was a guarantee process that --

O'DONNELL: -- higher wage for the legal worker is what makes the illegal worker attractive in the landscaping business.

MCDONALD: Yes, I think we need to look at the fundamental issue of demand. And I think if you look at -- I mean I'm -- I'm not saying oh Lou is a bad person. He's a bad man because he had contact with undocumented workers. That's not the point of the article. The point of the article is to show that even Lou Dobbs, the emblem of this get tough approach to immigration enforcement, even he has been unable to manage his own property --

DOBBS: Well wait a minute. I -- I -- I'm a little lost where -- where is the get tough approach?

MCDONALD: -- in such a way that there are not undocument -- undocumented workers.

DOBBS: Where is the get tough -- now wait a minute. Wait a minute --

MCDONALD: Lou just let me --

DOBBS: -- where is the get tough approach?

MCDONALD: -- could you just let me finish, Lou?

DOBBS: If I may, may I? May I?

MCDONALD: No. Could I? I'm just finishing --

O'DONNELL: One -- a couple more sentences from Isabel and then I want to get to your point about your point, Lou about your get tough approach. (inaudible)

DOBBS: Very simply. I never (inaudible) that. I have never called for --

O'DONNELL: (inaudible) and then we will get to that, Lou, absolutely.

DOBBS: You got it. You got it.

MCDONALD: I think that Lou is the victim of his own completely unrealistic rhetoric. And if we want to find solutions to immigration we have to start with reality. We have to start with the reality of what goes on in our own back yards, what goes on in the cities of America and we need to recognize that there are millions of people who have been criminalized for working for people like Lou.

And we need to give them a chance to come out of the shadows because the real problem here, and I think this is something that Lou has been getting at over the years so I think he's misguided us because he's used this -- this very black and white rhetoric about immigration but the problem with having such huge parts of sectors like landscaping in the shadows is that workers don't have adequate protection.

And we need a way to bring people out of the shadows so that they have better protection and so that they have better protection and so that everybody can enjoy a living wage in this country.

O'DONNELL: Lou, can you stay with us and respond to this after a break? Can you let me get a commercial break in here?

DOBBS: It would be my pleasure.

O'DONNELL: Lou -- Lou Dobbs, Isabel McDonnell will be back. We're gonna go to a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'DONNELL: We're back in The Last Word with Isabel McDonald and Lou Dobbs. Isabel McDonald, reporter for The Nation who has done a year-long investigation into Lou Dobbs' employment practices and has discovered illegal workers in some of Lou Dobbs' horse stables and possibly at his homes in landscaping.

Lou, Isabel had made a point before the break that you wanted to respond to and expand on. Please go ahead.

DOBBS: Very simply. I have hired no illegal immigrants, no company of mine has hired illegal immigrants and that is the essential fact.

Thirdly, there is a -- a number of (inaudible) missions in her story among the fact -- among those, the fact that she misrepresented what the story was about to a number of people in the horse industry suggesting it was about getting visas for illegal immigrants. But all of that aside, the reality is I am a target for the nation because there are left wing activists advocacy publication and I have no problem with that.

But the fact that she has admitted that I have done absolutely nothing wrong, I have done absolutely nothing illegal -- it seems to be something that you know, people want to avoid here.

The bottom line is I have done nothing illegal.

O'DONNELL: But I didn't hear that (inaudible)

DOBBS: You didn't hear her say that --

O'DONNELL: Go ahead.

DOBBS: You didn't hear her say, let's try it right now, Isabel did you not say that you had no evidence whatsoever that I had ever hired an illegal immigrant either personally or through one of my companies?

MCDONALD: Lou, you have a lot more experience with doing broadcast than me and I got caught up in your -- in your hair splitting earlier.

And I will grant you.

DOBBS: Well, I’m not sweating (inaudible) did I or did I not?

MCDONALD: I don’t have evidence that you directly, knowingly employed any undocumented worker. All I’m saying is that, they labored on your property. And the question that I’m wanting you answer is where does the buck stop Lou?

You became an emblem for a hard-line approach to immigration enforcement and you’re holding yourself to a totally different standard. You never, you never made allowances for employers you relied on.

DOBBS: What, what standard have I, I’m sorry.

MCDONALD: The contracted undocumented workers before. Why should we grant you this?

DOBBS: I’m sorry Lawrence. I thought you said.

O’DONNELL: Go ahead, Lou.

DOBBS: Well, I guess the reason is very simple. No one who has ever not hired an illegal immigrant, no one who has ever not hired an illegal immigrant through their companies would not in any way be responsible for the hiring of an illegal immigrant.

That seems straight forward and hardly a matter of splitting of hairs. It seems purely straight forward and reasonable. Does it not?

O’DONNELL: I think we’re – Lou I have to rule that we’re splitting hairs. The judge rules we’re splitting hairs. Because especially when on this show you said you know that you’ve never directly or on your radio show today you said you never directly or indirectly.

We all indirectly employ, hire, pay, give money to illegal aliens.
When I go to the car wash on Venture Boulevard.

DOBBS: Now wait a minute, wait a minute. (inaudible). That’s a different statement Lawrence.

O’DONNELL: And my car is getting cleaned by those guys and I shift them cash.

DOBBS: Please.

O’DONNELL: I know who I’m giving money to. Don’t I?

DOBBS: I don’t know that you do.

O’DONNELL: But they are indirectly working for me, cleaning my car. They are indirectly working for me at restaurants. They are indirectly in our lives at minimum indirectly the are in all of our lives providing service.

DOBBS: Lawrence there are 12 to 20 million illegal immigrants in this country. We are trying hard to come up with a solution. We would not be doing so if they were not in this country. And they would not be in this country if illegal employers were not illegally employing them.

Those illegal employers by the way hire them directly whether it is a chicken processing plant, whether it is a construction company. But when you attack me you’re attacking me because of my name and my standing.

O’DONNELL: What do you call the people who hire illegal employers?
What do you call the people who…

DOBBS: I’m sorry?

O’DONNELL: What do you call the people who hire the illegal employers?

DOBBS: The hiring of illegal employers?

O’DONNELL: Yes. If I hire a contractor to do my landscaping and that contractor is what you call an illegal employer what do you call me?

DOBBS: You tell me? What would you?

O’DONNELL: What they’re calling you Lou is (inaudible).

DOBBS: You’re the judge you tell me.

O’DONNELL: Well what they’re calling you on this case is a hypocrite if you did that. You do, what I’m agreeing to is you absolutely didn’t commit a crime if you did that. I’m agreeing to that. But when you take to the pulpit and preach what you preached you got to be, you got to understand why people think this is a hypocritical outcome.

That Isabel would be (inaudible).

DOBBS: Hypocritical outcome.

O’DONNELL: If Isabel was able to find illegal workers on your property.

DOBBS: If The Nation just discovered, I’m sorry.

O’DONNELL: If Isabel was able to find illegal workers on your property you recognized what that means in terms of your bulk, your public image and its – the way it doesn’t fit with your public statements.

DOBBS: Well again, let’s go through the facts. There is no evidence what so ever that I’ve ever hired an illegal immigrant because I never have. And if you want to hold me to it a different and higher standard you go right ahead.

O’DONNELL: No let’s grant that.

DOBBS: If that’s convenient to a political and ideological case.

O’DONNELL: We’re going to grant that point for the rest of the interview and now what I want to do is examine. Because you, I mean you spent a lot of time thinking about this subject and I want you to think about the subject with one more dimension.

You’ve talked about the illegal employers and we’re all going to agree that the employers who do this knowingly and illegally in order to exploit that cheap labor that is illegal and that is a different class of activity of what we might be talking about tonight.

DOBBS: By the way it’s more complicated even that that but that’s all right.

O’DONNELL: Sure. So let’s complicate it. Let’s do one more level of complication. Let’s talk about the people who hire contractors who have themselves and those contractors are filed with illegal workers.

What do you call the people who hire contractors who use illegal workers? What are they in the Lou Dobbs (inaudible) of (inaudible)?

DOBBS: They have no, they have no standing of any kind.

O’DONNELL: Huh?

DOBBS: They have no standing of any kind. They’re committing no misdemeanor, felony or (inaudible).

O’DONNELL: So that’s OK with Lou? Is that OK with Lou?

DOBBS: Is it OK with me? Lawrence if it were OK with me we wouldn’t be having the discussion. But when you talk about 12 to 20 million Americans what would you call a solution? What would you recommend – your recommendation be?

My recommendation has been this. A rational, effective human reform of our immigration system and, and enforcement of our security at the border and ports. Now if you find something wrong with that or defiant in reason or approach.

You know I be delighted. I be the first to say bring on your ear solution. Because we’ve been struggling as a country for four years and the fact of the matter is the socio-ethnocentric interest groups, the business groups, the open boarders groups, the amnesty groups each of them is conspiring through their own pigheadedness and they’re seeking of the whole loaf instead of a compromise.

They are hurting the illegal immigrants. Now in this country and they are hurting this economy and our society by the, by the strategies they’re pursuing. Why in the world should we be four years later having a discussion about what we’re going to do about immigration and border security.

We have brought in more illegal immigrants. Their condition has worsened. Our border security is still not in place. Our port security is worse if anything. And we are having discussions from The Nation about whether or not three have documents who were you know working on my lawn in Florida.

Its utter madness and the real absurdity I think Lawrence is that the mainstream media buys into this bull and carries the nonsense along as if it were logical, reasonable and had anything to do with law or breaking of the law. When in fact it had nothing to do with anything other than may opinion than using my name perhaps to do a little fundraising for The Nation.

O’DONNELL: All right. Well The Nation has done a lot more on the immigrant subject than just how many illegal workers does Lou Dobbs have.

DOBBS: Sure.

O’DONNELL: But let’s get to the larger subject here.

DOBBS: Well I’m just talking about the latest edition.

O’DONNELL: The article is available at thenation.com. I want anyone who’s interested in the evidence to get into the article and dig into it and make your own judgments out what you’re reading.

DOBBS: Absolutely.

O’DONNELL: Isabel, there is a larger issue here and Lou’s right about that. There are humane solutions or propositions that have been advanced about this. They tend to get shouted down in the politics of this in terms of let’s just seal the border.

The John McCain Humane Policy has just become you know build the dang fence. That’s his policy now. And it is your position that Lou Dobbs and the rhetoric that he has supported and others have joined in the chorus of is part of what has actually led to an oversimplification of this discussion and a reduction to nothing but build the dam fence.

MCDONALD: Absolutely. I mean I appreciate that Lou has repositioned himself on this issue and I think it’s wonderful that for instance he is no longer using the term illegal aliens. I think this is a great move. I think we could actually further and stop using the term illegal altogether. But…

O’DONNELL: Lou is not going that far. Go ahead. Go.

MCDONALD: Yes, we have also acknowledge the fact that Lou Dobbs, the last time there was a comprehensive immigration reform proposal on the table Lou Dobbs had denounced it on an almost nightly basis on CNN as an amnesty agenda that should be rejected.

So I think that we need to be accountable for what we say especially when we have such a large platform as what Lou Dobbs has had for years on the issue of immigration. And all I’m saying is we need to start with reality.

And even now when Lou Dobbs said we need to first secure the border.
We have to look at the fact that there is, there was a – I talked to a (inaudible) worker who had crossed the border to work with Lou Dobbs million dollar show jumping horses.

We have to address the demand and Lou Dobbs in many ways typifies the demand for undocumented labor. Its America’s wealthy elite who most depend on that labor and you can’t on the one hand criminalize these workers and at the same time exploit them.

Lou Dobbs you can’t have your cake and eat it to.

DOBBS: When have I ever suggested criminalizing an illegal immigrant? When?

MCDONALD: You actually.

DOBBS: When have I ever suggested that?

MCDONALD: You had suggested on CNN in 2006.

DOBBS: I have not. No, no.

MCDONALD: You had suggested that the deportation of immigrants should be on the street.

O’DONNELL: OK let’s cut that. People can go to Google and find
out exactly what Lou’s been arguing.

DOBBS: Yes.

O’DONNELL: And all of his comments have been public for years. Lou we’re going to, we’re running out of time here I want to get, I want to get one more point from you. You’re going to be addressing the Tea Party this weekend. Are you going to tell them that you are in favor of a humane immigration solution?

And are you going to tell them what you know? Which is the Obama Administration has cracked down on border security much tougher than the Bush Administration ever did and is sending back far more people across, back across that border than the Bush Administration ever did?

DOBBS: Answer to the first part of your question Lawrence is this.
I’m going to talk about what I been talking about for several years now which is a rational, effective humane immigration policy. I am also going to talk, very seriously about border security.

And I’m going to talk as well very seriously about the responsibility of the government of Mexico to its people and the responsibility of the United States to end its patronizing, condescending foreign policy toward the government of Mexico in the interest of both nations and both peoples.

I’m going to be talking very straight forwardly about what I think are the best solutions available to us to end this crisis and to move ahead in this in this situation.

O’DONNELL: And the last work hypocrisy court room the defendant always gets the last word. Lou that’s it. You got the LAST WORD tonight. And Isabel McDonald of The Nation. Thank you both very much for joining us for this special extended interview tonight thank you.